Curse

berlioz7 · Jun 15, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

I remember Gaile writing in another post that the devs also read the forums, so Im sure that Gaile is not the only way that they have of finding out how the players feel. I guess that the latest nerf wish of the PVP crowd is to have curses nerfed into obliteration. Maybe the devs won't to it because they are finally figuring out that if they nerf everything that PVPrs want nerfed that there will be no more PVE and only monks, eles, and warriors running around in the PVP arenas.

Miral · Jun 15, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiQiuD

If she didn't realize that she was going to bare the brunt of the attacks from a rabid fan base...she probably shouldn't have taken the job. The Original CR from CoH (CuppaJo FTW) knew it would be part of the job, took the job, and because she was honest, and didn't lose her cool in public turned into probably one of the greatest CRs I have ever seen. It's part of the job...learn to deal, or put in for a transfer.

I worked as a CR, hated it, and I'll never go back.

yeah I worked in customer support as well, and if I ever tried to pull any of the crap Gaile goes on with, I would have been canned in a heartbeat...

Pandora's box · Jun 15, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I think Gaile is just doing her job. Not knowing much about PvP? Well she does not know much about PvE either. My observation is that she is looking to the game through pink collored glasses: everything needs to be cute and cozy...

But she DOES read the forums and I'm convinced she DOES pass on the information to the dev's. I can't judge if this happens selectively or not. I don't know how much information actually reaches the devs, and how they react. But if its for making adjustments to the game I'm quite sure the dev's are working according to their own ideas, based on their own set of game rules, and that Gaile has no influence on that...

Jaythen Tyradel · Jun 15, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Have I been happy with all changes? No
Have I felt that I have been lied to? No

From reading here, and seeing others frustration with changes, I can say that there are things that need to be changed. However, not all things need to be as they were.

One thing I strongly feel:
The GW Info/content(new, changed) supply and demand is out of balance here.
The supply of info is lacking in relation to the demand of the players.

HOWEVER-

The demand of the players right now is teetering out of control. Even if it were supplied by Anet, Gail, or anyone, it wouldn't be enough ( and people will complain) or it wouldn't say what the players want to hear (ergo..more complaining).
Its Friday. Update will most likely be out today.
What do I and you expect to hear once people see what has been changed?
This thread says alot.

lyra_song · Jun 15, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

I think Gaile is just doing her job. Not knowing much about PvP? Well she does not know much about PvE either.

She barely has time to play. How many fan forums are there?

Guru? GWO? Gamefaqs? IGN? 1UP? I know theres quite a few more big ones...

Try to condense everything everyone says per day on fan forums into a report someone can read in less than half our.

i reiterate my previous post. the job is bullshit translator.

How do you know something really matters, or a select few are just REALLY vocal?

ChaoticCoyote · Jun 15, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

IDidn't she basically LIE? Everything on the Inquirer is totally CORRECT, words by words, when compared with PCGamer's info. What's the deal here?

And just so you know, that was the time when I lost my faith in Anet, and Gaile in particular.

I hate to say it, but... yup, I had the same feelings. In fact, people in these forums SAVAGELY attacked the author of the Inquirer article, saying the facts were wrong (they weren't) or that the screen shot was faked (it wasn't).

I don't remember Gaile or the moderators defending the Inquirer writer from such personal attacks.

Yes, that was when I lost much of my faith in GW and Gaile.

At times, Gaile seems more like a politician than anything else; she cherry-picks the questions she answers without responding to difficult (and polite)
questions. Make a rude comment about throwing away mini-pets, and Gaile is right there with an answer; ask a serious question about a game mechanic, and she often graces us with stoney silence.

I *like* Gaile. I *admire* how well she handles a tough job.

But I'm also not blind to the flaws in her approach to the community, which at times are (to be polite) disingenuous.

Snype · Jun 15, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

This just sounds like a last ditch effort to have anet ruin the hexes for PVE'rs. Why not just remove all skills and simply fight with the weapon the character is carrying, or better yet, give everyone in PVP the same skillset and be done with it. PVE has lost so much of their game because of all the PVP crying and a lot of us are getting sick of it. Anet will either have to isolate PVE from PVP or totally ruin PVE to attempt to balance PVP. My mesmer, ritualist and paragon has been reduced to shit because of PVP and im getting sick of it.

This is exactly the kind of post the OP was talking about.

In essence, your post is a contradiction of the bolded statement. What do you think you are doing in this post?

Anyway, the OP's post is by far the best representation of the "problems" with Anet's customer service. I very much like the idea of having seperate PvE and PvP CR's.

I think that posts like these - ones with organized, solid arguments, are what will get the players what they want. If someone is making a valid argument with plenty of evidence to prove it, why wouldn't Anet listen?

Red-Tide · Jun 15, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

A year ago I would have given Anet's CR team a 2 thumb's up, but as of late the communication between them and the community is seriously lacking.

It is to bad that Gaile is taking the brunt of this but that is afterall part of her job. One thing you need to be as a PR/CR person is thick skinned, if you are not, you are in the wrong profession.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 15, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Tiyuri said most of what I feel pretty well, but to elaborate on my thoughts...

I do feel there needs to be an additional CR person or two. I'm not truly confident in Gaile being able to convey all our concerns by herself, nor being able to reply to us about the dev team's intentions alone. She tries, and thanks for that, but still. I'm aware that dev team members supposedly read the forums as well, but I still feel the need for more CR.

I'd feel a lot better if there was a competent CR who actually played the PvP portion of the game often, so they could more effectively relay prominent concerns to the dev team, using their own experience as well as that of the community. Perhaps add one more for PvE as well, if that was desired.

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 15, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Gaile is simply the unlucky recipient of months of seething anger, confusion, and exhasperation on the community at large. I've found that people are more inclined to complain rather than compliment, to be cross rather than happy when it comes to games of all types. When I go to my various Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh forums is see more posts about what Upper Deck/Konami/Shueisha(Yu-Gi-Oh's problem lies in too many fingers in one pie) and Wizards of The Coast(WoTC seems to like produce inconsistent product) is doing wrong. WoTC is smart enough not to send employees onto any forums to explain their actions but Upper Deck does. No matter how many times the designers explain themselves people just aren't satisfied. I think the people here are getting the wrong idea about Gaile. She doesn't have the power to fix everything thats wrong. Its not her job to kow-tow to our wishes and take repeated verbal abuse. All she can do is document our complaints and take them back to the design team. In fact, the more we abuse her the more apathetic she's likely to get towards our concerns.

Ithil Tior · Jun 15, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Gaile put aside, it is obvious that there is something missing in the Dev to Community relation. Especially in the PvP section of the game, like you said. Either they seem to be missing alot, or they're just incredibly stubborn. Their updates don't really change what the PvP community wants them to change. Maybe they just don't know about it. Or, Perhaps, the Devs have their own (valid) reasons for not nerfing hexes, changing paragons, removing killcount, etc. If that is the case, please share them with the community, so we don't have to guess about it.
If your quotes are true, then Gaile Gray indeed does not know alot about PvP. Perhaps another CR aimed at PvP can fix things.

Buddah · Jun 15, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

The fact that this forced me beyond the trade forums speaks of how important this really is. I also won't spend much time either.

Somehow people in the community, be individuals or small groups, got it in their head they could heavily influence Anet. To an extent just about everyone has had expectations or desired changes in the game. A few people overreacted when Anet did a skill update that in many books was fairly conservative.

I'll cut it off quick. The world, Anet, doesn't revolve around around the individual. Nor does it revolve around a small group of people. The community in a sense revolves around Anet and our influences are small.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

And it looks like Gaile's just losing her coolheadedness since shes usually the brunt target of all our bullshit.

Trust me when I say there was more than a couple posts removed, and not just in those final hours when it all blew up.

If this thread goes the same route... well so be it. To oblivion it goes.

Sirocco Starluck · Jun 15, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Just posting my two bits while we're on this subject. I'm not as eager to get riled and angry at the changes as others, but even when I am tarting and cheesed I don't dump it on Gaile Grey. She's one against the mob, from the sounds of it.

You can't tell me that she doesn't have days where she gets so frazzled that she's tail over teacup. She can only tell you what she's told.

The game can't cater to every single idea or demand that spills out on the forums. What they can do is compromise and learn from it. (I hope!)

Even so... I've heard on more than one occassion that "once there's a change, ANet NEVER goes back on it". That kind of makes me nervous. Does that mean if they make a change that's for the worse that instead of removing it to the way it was they'll just kruft it with plaster and duct tape? It makes me feel pretty uncomfortable if that's the truth of the matter.

I'm so confused now. At this point it seems as though they've painted themselves into a corner.

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 15, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I don't know where the problem lies... could be gaile's job description, the devs, who knows. And really we can't figure it out ourselves. But I agree there IS a problem. Sometimes it feels like we might as well be talking to a brick wall about our concerns. It also seems wrong that an update designed to help balance pvp manages to make changes that both PvPers and PvEers don't like.

Are we being overly demanding, so anet chooses to ignore us? I think not. The main focus of the complaints have been changes to the existing game. We're not asking for them to implement a huge number of crazy things (there is some of that, but it's not what has people so riled up). It's that they keep making changes to the game that are very unpopular, and we want it reversed. I don't think that reacting to a change that makes a fun game boring is unreasonable. And recently they have been making a lot of these changes (soul reaping, loot scaling, armor buff). So what else can they expect?

But no matter how much we complain, it seems our complaints fall on deaf ears. Sometimes they try to offer compromise solutions (soul reaping, HA, loot scaling exceptions) but these solutions are only a bandaid on the deep gash caused by anet's changes to a good game. Three million copies sold? Obviously people like the game. So why must they change it in such unpopular ways when there are alternative, and better, solutions suggested by the community?

The problem is anet's philosophy seems to be "if it ain't broke, keep trying to improve it even if you break it in the attempt".

Perhaps having a CR person was a mistake in the first place. It gives players hope that they will be listened to, that the devs might implement their good ideas. But if Gaile's job is actually more of a PR job, then this hope is false. And so the players get frustrated because they think Gaile is failing at her job, and take their anger out on her.

Billiard · Jun 15, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I am a PvPer and a long time ANet fan. Things have been pretty frustrating of late, but I would like to direct you all to some thoughts I had about this a couple months ago: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10135994

In this article I mention about how Guild Wars is a type of proof of concept test for a new game model. As such, I really don't think they have the backing and resources that you might expect for a much more mature and developed game, such as WoW. Even so, the game has done remarkably well - but there have been a lot of things that could have been done better. Somethings get addressed, some things seem to be ignored. All of it seems to take some time. Why do you suppose this is?

Guild Wars was 5 years in development. Since GW2 is slated to be released in 2010, it should be around 2+ years in development now. My guess is that Izzy and a lot of other resources have started turning their attention not only to GW:EN but also GW2. This is one reason why we probably see other devs like Morello doing more of the skill balancing work. This is also probably why things are really slow to get done now. The devs are busy working on GW:EN, they are busy working on GW2, and they have GW to work on as well. All of that and you don't see a lot of additions to the list of people working at ANet posted on their site.

My take on things is that GW is not going to change a whole lot as more and more resources get shifted to GW2. GW:EN will be a nice diversion, but probably not a major overhaul. Guild Wars is not the end all and be all of the franchise. Probably GW2 is not either. Just like WoW took multiple iterations to get to where it is now, GW will as well. The difference though is that the starting point for GW, where we are at now, is so much better than that of a lot of other games.

So I think it's important to consider the context in which the game and its developments exists. ANet has finite resources that are getting stretched in order to push the franchise forward. Even though additional revenue is not coming from GW now, they are still doing their best to support it. Like you all I have committed a lot to GW with all campaigns on several accounts. Even so, I still would prefer they do a bang-up job on GW2 and get it ready as soon as possible rather than address every little thing in GW immediately.

Anyway, to get this to the topic at hand, there are a lot of things going on that Gaile probably cannot talk about for a variety of reasons. We as players tend to be very nearsighted, while the company is going to typically have a much longer range view - a view though that cannot be shared. Given these opposing forces, I think that Gaile does the best she can given the constraints. She cannot talk about things until given the okay by the developers, and because of past experiences the devs are becoming ever reluctant to release information until they are absolutley sure things are done and will be in place.

Finally I pose this question:

Would everyone be happier if Guild Wars was released and nothing afterwards was balanced or changed? Basically if there was no dev response other than bug fixing and server maintenance? I spend a lot of more money on other software packages that don't get the kind of attention that GW has gotten over the past two years. Instead I just have to buy the next version when it comes out every one to two years.

scrinner · Jun 15, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Im going to make this as long as possible (For me anways..)

1. Many people are taking a vacation from the game tell EOTN comes out. Thus the more angry people gain a bigger voice since the rest have left.

2. We are all bored. Hard mode was okay but for me, I want REAL quests in PVE and not some FEDEX crap. PVP is all about the high end stuff including HA/GVG. For me TA/RA has always been boring. I seriously cant imagine staying in random arenas for more then half an hour. However lately people have been complaining about HA and GVG and i too think it needs an update. What that update is? I dont know and i dont think the community does either. Its due to this conundrum that I believe Anet doesnt know which side to take. Let's leave that at that.

3. Us all attacking gaile wont help one bit. Though i think she is doing a good job i think the suggestion of a PVP rep was brilliant.

4. There was a list earlier in this thread about Paragons being weak alone and over powered else where. Though i like Guild War's interconnectivity between the two games i seriously think we need a physical division between the two gametypes. I'm not suggesting two different skillsets but something must be done here.

5. Wheres my pony?

Doomus · Jun 15, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

Gaile is simply the unlucky recipient of months of seething anger, confusion, and exhasperation on the community at large. I've found that people are more inclined to complain rather than compliment, to be cross rather than happy when it comes to games of all types. When I go to my various Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh forums is see more posts about what Upper Deck/Konami/Shueisha(Yu-Gi-Oh's problem lies in too many fingers in one pie) and Wizards of The Coast(WoTC seems to like produce inconsistent product) is doing wrong. WoTC is smart enough not to send employees onto any forums to explain their actions but Upper Deck does. No matter how many times the designers explain themselves people just aren't satisfied. I think the people here are getting the wrong idea about Gaile. She doesn't have the power to fix everything thats wrong. Its not her job to kow-tow to our wishes and take repeated verbal abuse. All she can do is document our complaints and take them back to the design team. In fact, the more we abuse her the more apathetic she's likely to get towards our concerns.

Nicely put, and pretty much how I see things as well. Trying hard not to descend into arguments and flamebaiting, I work in a public-facing job, and if a customer ever spoke to me or a colleague in the same way that many of the posts directed at Anet and personally at Gaile are written, I would be within my rights to inform them, politely, calmly, but firmly, that we are here to help them in every way we can, but NOT to be the target of their abuse, and to refuse to deal with them until they could speak to me in a civil manner, knowing that my line manager would back me up in that, if necessary. If someone has a valid concern about the game, fine, but if they cannot put that concern across in a civilised manner, tbh I don't believe they have the right to expect any sort of response.

w00t! · Jun 15, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrinner

Im going to make this as long as possible (For me anways..)

1. Many people are taking a vacation from the game tell EOTN comes out. Thus the more angry people gain a bigger voice since the rest have left.

2. We are all bored. (snip)

3. Us all attacking gaile wont help one bit. Though i think she is doing a good job i think the suggestion of a PVP rep was brilliant.

4. (snip)

5. Wheres my pony?

ZOMG! I wanted a PURPLE pony! What did Anet give me? A pink one with polka dots! /ragequit.

On a more serious note:

/signed for a PvP rep, though it certainly won't decrease Anet's development cycle, so people can't expect any quicker turnaround for enhancements / bug fixes.

Also, I disagree about the bored part. Guild Wars stopped being about PvP or PvE for me quite some time ago. Now it's about:

1) The fun of joining PUG's in HM for Tombs and seeing how well / poorly people play.

2) Forming an all-mesmer (plus one monk and MM) group for Sorrow's Furnace, not coordinating any skills, and just running out and seeing how far we could get. We almost completed Oro, and quicker than any BP could have.

3) Doing silly things with the friends I've met over the past two years

4) Helping others out rather then trying to get richer and more L337.

5) Making the most out of Anet balances and nerfs; trying to be the first person to come out with that new build which works well after the updates.

6) And more stuff that I can't think of right now.

Celestial_Kitsune · Jun 15, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Gaile is doing her job well. Community is not being ignored - Anet just does not have sufficient resources to balance the game properly due to GW:EN and GW2 development.

Skuld · Jun 15, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

Gaile is doing her job well. Community is not being ignored - Anet just does not have sufficient resources to balance the game properly due to GW:EN and GW2 development.

Please explain.